UK CROWDS

Fees correct from 1st January 2011



Horse in Training


35.00€ per day
Yearlings / 2 year olds
(Until 1st March)


30.00€ per day
Transport


0.50€ per kilometre

(Transport to the races is reimbursed by France Galop at a rate of 0.1275€/km PMH meetings and 0.255€/km for PMU).


Farrier (full set)


55.00 to 57.50€

Please note that all the above fees quoted are before tax (TVA) at 5.5%

ADDITIONAL FEES
Gallop fees


49.04€ per month (which includes tax at 19.6%). Paid by direct debit through the owners France Galop account.

Easy,thanks for your response which is a good advert for french racing,but in order to $@#&% up SA racing 6-0,it needs the FUNDS.
If you read my post,and subsequent clarification,my question is HOW those stakes are funded and whether there are lessons that could be applied here.
As I have said that I don't believe that bookmakers are the entire issue.....(.ie. it is clear that knowledgable punters are unhappy with the goings on with Saftote dividends,but ,I assume,not so in France).....so let me ask again
1) what % of Tote/parimutual(sic) are retained in the nett pools for distribution to punters
2)Are stakes funded entirely by tote takeout or do they recieve,any other boost,from any other source/s.
I believe that our operators will have a good knowledge of the answers and would disclose it if our product could compare favourably.The fact that our model is failing would suggest otherwise.


That is the long story.....the short story is "if we are failing where others are succeeding,why don't we stop doing what we're doing,and start doing what they're doing??"

Don't take my word for it, but I have a suspicion that French racing is partially funded through EU subsidies as their racing is classified as an "agricultural" rather than solely a "leisure" pursuit, and benefits greatly as a result. I stress again that I could be mistaken, but that might help to explain at least in part why French racing is so much wealthier than other European Tote monopolies of roughly similar size (in terms of population and disposable income) as Germany or Italy.

Rob, good ol' google - found something interesting here:
www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A76089586
i've copied part of the forum discussion which is relevant to your question...perhaps it helps a little.

comment by QuarterMoon (U12807838)
posted Nov 1, 2010
“sell off boring, unproductive racecourses, reduce the number of days and centralize racing the way they do in France”

I am not sure where this view of racing with our cross-Channel neighbours comes from, but it does not appear to be founded in the facts of how the system operates. It might be an idea to go on the France Galop website and take a look at how many provincial racecourses there are in France and take a quick perusal of the fixture list. It is not just flat racing or over obstacles, but also trotting/harness racing.

Racing in France benefits from the state gambling monopoly, which ensures that there is always lots of money to fund everything, whether the people administering the sport are competent or not.

posted Nov 2, 2010
Robin, who said anything about disagreeing with you? British racing is run by an elitist club who have demonstrated their collective incompetence over a long period of time. On that we can agree.

I merely pointed out the factual inaccuracy of the statement that you made. In your three years in the French industry, how many “unproductive racecourses” were closed or sold? In your statement you say that they “centralize” racing in France yet now you state exactly the opposite: it is regionalised.

Funnily enough I have been racing in France on numerous occasions in the last seven or eight years and I am familiar with the Quinté bet. It’s not a bet I have ever done but I don’t play the lottery either. It could be argued that the Tote Scoop 6 bet on a Saturday in Britain is a lottery but I don’t play that and it is unlikely to ever rake in sufficient funds to sustain British racing.

Whereas in France the Quinté is the only game in town, any such wager in Britain would have to compete with the National Lottery, the football pools coupon, the Tote Scoop 6 and any rival wager that the bookmakers come up with. If you are in North America you must be familiar with the concept of market forces. As a funding strategy what you suggest is a non-starter.

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comment by Robin Dawson (U14670011)
posted Nov 2, 2010
Lets agree to disagree. The bottom line, here, is that like so many issues involving our sport few people care any more...as is evidenced by this rather pointless exchange between ourselves...you, a self-proclaimed, partial lunatic, some obscure member of Newmarket's royalty and myself. How sad!
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comment by Robin Dawson (U14670011)
posted Nov 2, 2010
Hey...Quartermain (that sounds better)...a couple of final points: French racing IS centralized, per the Paris circuit, on which the lion's share of betting takes place. Everything else are sattelite operations, such as Societe Bordeaux Sportif (Sud-ouest) etc. etc. As for a lottery not being the answer. Consider this..the matter is now being (hopefully) resolved by the Government. So why doesn't David Cameron allow racing to run a series of National Sweepstakes via the lottery network on the races that I mentioned (Grand National etc.) with the proceeds going to the families of soldiers killed or injured in Iraq and Afghanistan? Nobody, not even bookmakers, would oppose such a scheme (well, maybe you would?) and the positive PR for racing would be massive.

and another quote from a legal research paper:(page 9 for further read if you wish) www.monckton.com/docs/library/DirectTaxPaperNP.pdf

5.5 Broadly speaking, the French ‘tote’ (the PMU) had the exclusive right to take totalizator bets
in France, on French or foreign races, but was obliged to ensure that best taken on foreign
races were transferred to the relevant foreign ‘tote’. Betting levy in Belgium was 35%, while
in France it was 30%, of which 18% went to the State as tax, 10 % to the racecourses and
the remainder to the national stud.

how is the takeout pie made up currently in SAF ? are you only comparing europe/UK/USA - why not look at Japan's/AUS model? perhaps its not about the tax and rather that other models differ in their operational goal output (more unified/centralised than in SAF - where they are almost working against each other if you wish!!) ?

Rob+Lips - Fr racing is graded as agricultural and was exempt from housing levy for a while (early 1990's) - there was a case about this being deemed as state aid not too long ago and was contested by another body. Also, their tote rounded off to the nearest 10c on all winning bets and also were entitled to keep all unclaimed winning bets without tax being levied on these amounts coming back in. Not sure how it works these days though.

That figure of 30% levy(take-out) part of which 18% tax is more than Saftote,if our take-out is what we are led to believe.
Question: if their nett pools are less(relative to gross) than ours they must have shocking payouts,worse than ours,and R1 payouts must be prevalent.
If so how do they keep customers coming back and if not what is the true take-out on our co-mingled pools.....the comparisons don't make sense.

Rob can you check your pm !