Doing It For Dan / Goosen positive
- dilligaf
-
- Senior Member
-
- Posts: 101
- Thanks: 10
Re: Re:RE: Doing It For Dan / Goosen positive
8 years 9 months agoI think they check to see if the horse has been sedated, to help it pass for re-issue of certificateCraig Pienaar wrote: Another daft question Louis
why would they take a specimen while you get a starting stall certificate done , is this normal procedure ?
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
The following user(s) said Thank You: Craig Eudey
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Craig Eudey
-
- Platinum Member
-
- Posts: 4561
- Thanks: 559
Re: Doing It For Dan / Goosen positive
8 years 9 months ago
Not a race, not a steriod, not a sedative as far as I know, in the vets book as prescribed, what is the problem? Am I missing something?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- neigh
-
- Platinum Member
-
- Posts: 2132
- Thanks: 442
Re: Doing It For Dan / Goosen positive
8 years 9 months ago
Craig its the old story of them taking on soft targets to make as though they are doing their job. Whith a huge drum role and percussion to follow. The joke is the BIG Offenders get away with the "real" doping problems on a daily basis. Spineless bunch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- zsuzsanna04
-
- New Member
-
- Thanks: 0
Re: Doing It For Dan / Goosen positive
8 years 9 months ago
This is the tricky thing.
There are various forms of medication and there are various ways of administering them. If you are thinking 'Oh f**k, this sounds messy', then yes, you are quite correct.
The easiest category is the out and out performance enhancing type of medication such as anabolic steroids (let's not get into the really interesting stuff) which is totally banned. That is nice and easy and clear cut.
Then there are substances that are considered therapeutic if used correctly within the given parameters, but are considered 'performance enhancing' (ie banned) if used outside of their prescribed use. This is the 'oh f**k' area and the bit where most people get confused / caught out.
Therapeutic medication is allowed, but only for medically prescribed purposes, in prescribed amounts for prescribed periods of time and needs to be entered into the treatment register for each and every horse (eg an anti-inflammatory, an cortico-steroid, a steroid, Lasix, etc). All these substances are medically approved and have recognised, medically approved therapeutic properties and can be used for medically approved / recognised issues. Now you get to the part where these substances also may be considered to have performance enhancing (or sometimes - such as the case in Lasix - masking) properties. And this is where things get complicated.
These substances are OK to use therapeutically (ie on medical advice, for a prescribed medical problem and for a prescribed amount and a prescribed length of time) in which case they are, in theory, permissable substances. However, these same therapeutic substances, used outside of the above mentioned parameters, can also be considered banned substances if given at the wrong times for the wrong reasons and without the requisite medical permission.
To give you an example, a recently gelded colt or perhaps one that has undergone a serious surgery, may become anaemic and require a steroid to help it recover. Prescribed by a vet, for a diagnosed condition and for a diagnosed, prescribed period of time, this would be considered perfectly OK. The same with a horse that may be given some sort of broncho dilator if it is struggling with a respiratory condition.
HOWEVER, if that horse is raced before the allotted elimination time is up (something that should not happen), it will test positive and there would be consequences. Also, if the horse happens to test positive AFTER the prescribed elimination time, one would either need to consider that there was some sort of metabolic anomaly, or that the horse may have received an additional dose of the substance. This would fall foul of the 'in competition' rules and the trainer might be liable for a fine.
Horses are routinely checked for 'in competition' positives to ensure that they are not racing on any substances that are considered banned for racing. If you check race day Stipe reports, they usually sample the winner and then take a random sample from another runner. This is standard procedure.
However, horses may also be tested out of competition to check that they are not being given stuff - even things that may be medically acceptable - if they do not need it and have not been prescribed the treatment. This includes stable inspections and also horses that are passed through the pens. The pens testing is fairly new to me, so please treat with caution ! It seems all horses that are passed through the pens are tested. The rule originally stated that horses were not allowed to be passed through the pens with substances (such as a sedative) that might alter their behaviour. This is pretty sensible as it this would obviously render any pens certificate more or less irrelevant (if a horse is passed through the pens with a certificate on pens day, there is no guarantee it will not be a nuisance on race day with no medication). However, it seems the rule has subsequently been amended to read that horses may not be passed through the pens with ANY substance / medication, which obviously complicates things somewhat as pens days are limited and horses may be receiving treatment and essentially be 'off work' which is an ideal time to deal with administrative issues such as getting pens certificates - things which now become mutually exclusive (see the recent Adam Marcus 'positive' in which he was fined for putting a horse through the pens that had been treated with Lasix - OK for therapeutic purposes and not something that can alter a horse's behaviour in the pens, but obviously not permitted on race day, so he fell foul of the 'out of competition testing' rule, although in theory at least, he should have been safe in terms of passing the horse through the pens).
From a personal perspective, I feel that the current medication rules are far too vague and allow too much room for error. If you allow room for negotiation or ambiguity, there will always be misunderstanding as well as people trying to push the envelope. My (admittedly draconian) view is all or nothing. There is no such thing as being 'a little bit' pregnant and there should be no such thing as being 'a little bit' medicated. You either are or you are not. They should make a list of the substances that are OK and a list that are not. No grey areas and then there can be no arguments. But I'm a fairly simple minded person and I acknowledge that this is a time-consuming and expensive way of doing things.
Nonetheless, I feel the rules should be clear and they should be fair and then everyone would know where they stand.
There are various forms of medication and there are various ways of administering them. If you are thinking 'Oh f**k, this sounds messy', then yes, you are quite correct.
The easiest category is the out and out performance enhancing type of medication such as anabolic steroids (let's not get into the really interesting stuff) which is totally banned. That is nice and easy and clear cut.
Then there are substances that are considered therapeutic if used correctly within the given parameters, but are considered 'performance enhancing' (ie banned) if used outside of their prescribed use. This is the 'oh f**k' area and the bit where most people get confused / caught out.
Therapeutic medication is allowed, but only for medically prescribed purposes, in prescribed amounts for prescribed periods of time and needs to be entered into the treatment register for each and every horse (eg an anti-inflammatory, an cortico-steroid, a steroid, Lasix, etc). All these substances are medically approved and have recognised, medically approved therapeutic properties and can be used for medically approved / recognised issues. Now you get to the part where these substances also may be considered to have performance enhancing (or sometimes - such as the case in Lasix - masking) properties. And this is where things get complicated.
These substances are OK to use therapeutically (ie on medical advice, for a prescribed medical problem and for a prescribed amount and a prescribed length of time) in which case they are, in theory, permissable substances. However, these same therapeutic substances, used outside of the above mentioned parameters, can also be considered banned substances if given at the wrong times for the wrong reasons and without the requisite medical permission.
To give you an example, a recently gelded colt or perhaps one that has undergone a serious surgery, may become anaemic and require a steroid to help it recover. Prescribed by a vet, for a diagnosed condition and for a diagnosed, prescribed period of time, this would be considered perfectly OK. The same with a horse that may be given some sort of broncho dilator if it is struggling with a respiratory condition.
HOWEVER, if that horse is raced before the allotted elimination time is up (something that should not happen), it will test positive and there would be consequences. Also, if the horse happens to test positive AFTER the prescribed elimination time, one would either need to consider that there was some sort of metabolic anomaly, or that the horse may have received an additional dose of the substance. This would fall foul of the 'in competition' rules and the trainer might be liable for a fine.
Horses are routinely checked for 'in competition' positives to ensure that they are not racing on any substances that are considered banned for racing. If you check race day Stipe reports, they usually sample the winner and then take a random sample from another runner. This is standard procedure.
However, horses may also be tested out of competition to check that they are not being given stuff - even things that may be medically acceptable - if they do not need it and have not been prescribed the treatment. This includes stable inspections and also horses that are passed through the pens. The pens testing is fairly new to me, so please treat with caution ! It seems all horses that are passed through the pens are tested. The rule originally stated that horses were not allowed to be passed through the pens with substances (such as a sedative) that might alter their behaviour. This is pretty sensible as it this would obviously render any pens certificate more or less irrelevant (if a horse is passed through the pens with a certificate on pens day, there is no guarantee it will not be a nuisance on race day with no medication). However, it seems the rule has subsequently been amended to read that horses may not be passed through the pens with ANY substance / medication, which obviously complicates things somewhat as pens days are limited and horses may be receiving treatment and essentially be 'off work' which is an ideal time to deal with administrative issues such as getting pens certificates - things which now become mutually exclusive (see the recent Adam Marcus 'positive' in which he was fined for putting a horse through the pens that had been treated with Lasix - OK for therapeutic purposes and not something that can alter a horse's behaviour in the pens, but obviously not permitted on race day, so he fell foul of the 'out of competition testing' rule, although in theory at least, he should have been safe in terms of passing the horse through the pens).
From a personal perspective, I feel that the current medication rules are far too vague and allow too much room for error. If you allow room for negotiation or ambiguity, there will always be misunderstanding as well as people trying to push the envelope. My (admittedly draconian) view is all or nothing. There is no such thing as being 'a little bit' pregnant and there should be no such thing as being 'a little bit' medicated. You either are or you are not. They should make a list of the substances that are OK and a list that are not. No grey areas and then there can be no arguments. But I'm a fairly simple minded person and I acknowledge that this is a time-consuming and expensive way of doing things.
Nonetheless, I feel the rules should be clear and they should be fair and then everyone would know where they stand.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- naresh
-
- Platinum Member
-
- Posts: 6386
- Thanks: 1497
Re: Doing It For Dan / Goosen positive
8 years 9 months ago
Therapeutic Use Exemptions open to abuse in athletes
The system of therapeutic use exemptions for athletes is open to abuse, says the man who led the probe into Russia's state-sponsored doping.
Hackers Fancy Bears this week released athletes' stolen medical files.
Asked if the files raised concerns about TUEs, Dr Richard McLaren said: "Probably the answer is yes - it would depend which sport."
ADVERTISEMENT
Olympic champions Laura Trott and Nicola Adams were among four Britons to have files released on Friday.
Medical details for swimmer Siobhan-Marie O'Connor and rower Olivia Carnegie-Brown were also published.
Three-time Tour de France champion Chris Froome and five-time Olympic gold medallist Bradley Wiggins had their files released earlier this week.
There is no suggestion the athletes are involved in any wrongdoing.
Russia president Vladimir Putin said that he "did not support what the hackers have been doing", but the files "raised many questions".
His comments came after International Olympic Committee (IOC) president Thomas Bach said he will ask Moscow for help to stop the hackers, whom the World Anti Doping Agency (Wada) believes are linked to Russia.
The records released mostly detail TUEs which allow banned substances to be taken for athletes' verified medical needs.
The group says TUEs are "licenses for doping" and that the World Anti-Doping Agency is "corrupt and deceitful".
Earlier this week, Wada director general Olivier Niggli strongly criticised the leak.
'TUEs are open to abuse'
Canadian law professor and sports lawyer McLaren told BBC World Service: "One of the common TUEs is for ADHD medication - there may be abuse there.
"That's one area that probably needs to be looked at - how frequently are [certain medicines] being used in particular sports?
"One would have to conduct investigations on specific sports as to whether or not too many TUEs are being used with respect to particular substances."
Methylphenidate, for example, is a stimulant that helps improve brain function in people with ADHD, but it could also help improve an athlete's performance and is only allowed to be used by elite performers with medical approval.
IOC response turned my report on its head'
McLaren also questioned the IOC response to his Russian state-sponsored doping investigation, which is believed to have prompted the hackers to break into Wada's systems and release the athletes' files.
He said the IOC downplayed the findings of his report, which concluded that Russia's sports ministry "directed, controlled and oversaw" manipulation of urine samples provided by its athletes between 2011 and 2015.
The IOC imposed a partial ban on Russian athletes competing in the 2016 Olympics, in contrast to the International Paralympic Committee, which imposed a blanket ban on Russian participation at the Paralympics.
"The IOC turned it into an issue about individuals," he said.
"The report looked at individuals not because they had committed doping infractions, but [to ascertain] whether they were part of a system that was operated outside of their national governing body, and was being run by the state."
He said he was "confident" the report found sufficient proof of Russian state-sponsored doping, "beyond a reasonable doubt".
"They were not interim conclusions," he said. "They were final conclusions, and not allegations, as was suggested by various organisations including the IOC.
"The decision by the IOC [to impose a ban only on individual Russian athletes guilty of doping offences in the past] turned that on its head and turned it into an issue about individuals and their rights to compete, which was nothing to do with the report."
What are therapeutic use exemptions?
A TUE allows an athlete, for medical reasons, to take a prescribed substance or undergo treatment which is prohibited.
British athletes must contact their national governing body or follow UK Anti-Doping (Ukad) guidance before applying for a TUE.
There are strict criteria for one to be granted:
The athlete would suffer significant health problems without taking the substance;
It would not be significantly performance-enhancing;
There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative to its use;
The need to use it is not due to prior use without a TUE.
Ukad says it has "a number of robust controls in place to make it as difficult as possible" for athletes to misuse the system.
Why are we talking about TUEs?
Froome and Wiggins, Britain's most decorated Olympian, were among the five British athletes whose stolen medical files - showing their TUEs - were published by Fancy Bears this week.
The medical files of golfer Charley Hull, rugby sevens player Heather Fisher and rower Sam Townsend were also made public.
Froome, 31, said he had already made public his use of TUEs.
Froome twice took the steroid prednisolone for "exacerbated asthma" while Wiggins used salbutamol to treat chest conditions and asthma
The system of therapeutic use exemptions for athletes is open to abuse, says the man who led the probe into Russia's state-sponsored doping.
Hackers Fancy Bears this week released athletes' stolen medical files.
Asked if the files raised concerns about TUEs, Dr Richard McLaren said: "Probably the answer is yes - it would depend which sport."
ADVERTISEMENT
Olympic champions Laura Trott and Nicola Adams were among four Britons to have files released on Friday.
Medical details for swimmer Siobhan-Marie O'Connor and rower Olivia Carnegie-Brown were also published.
Three-time Tour de France champion Chris Froome and five-time Olympic gold medallist Bradley Wiggins had their files released earlier this week.
There is no suggestion the athletes are involved in any wrongdoing.
Russia president Vladimir Putin said that he "did not support what the hackers have been doing", but the files "raised many questions".
His comments came after International Olympic Committee (IOC) president Thomas Bach said he will ask Moscow for help to stop the hackers, whom the World Anti Doping Agency (Wada) believes are linked to Russia.
The records released mostly detail TUEs which allow banned substances to be taken for athletes' verified medical needs.
The group says TUEs are "licenses for doping" and that the World Anti-Doping Agency is "corrupt and deceitful".
Earlier this week, Wada director general Olivier Niggli strongly criticised the leak.
'TUEs are open to abuse'
Canadian law professor and sports lawyer McLaren told BBC World Service: "One of the common TUEs is for ADHD medication - there may be abuse there.
"That's one area that probably needs to be looked at - how frequently are [certain medicines] being used in particular sports?
"One would have to conduct investigations on specific sports as to whether or not too many TUEs are being used with respect to particular substances."
Methylphenidate, for example, is a stimulant that helps improve brain function in people with ADHD, but it could also help improve an athlete's performance and is only allowed to be used by elite performers with medical approval.
IOC response turned my report on its head'
McLaren also questioned the IOC response to his Russian state-sponsored doping investigation, which is believed to have prompted the hackers to break into Wada's systems and release the athletes' files.
He said the IOC downplayed the findings of his report, which concluded that Russia's sports ministry "directed, controlled and oversaw" manipulation of urine samples provided by its athletes between 2011 and 2015.
The IOC imposed a partial ban on Russian athletes competing in the 2016 Olympics, in contrast to the International Paralympic Committee, which imposed a blanket ban on Russian participation at the Paralympics.
"The IOC turned it into an issue about individuals," he said.
"The report looked at individuals not because they had committed doping infractions, but [to ascertain] whether they were part of a system that was operated outside of their national governing body, and was being run by the state."
He said he was "confident" the report found sufficient proof of Russian state-sponsored doping, "beyond a reasonable doubt".
"They were not interim conclusions," he said. "They were final conclusions, and not allegations, as was suggested by various organisations including the IOC.
"The decision by the IOC [to impose a ban only on individual Russian athletes guilty of doping offences in the past] turned that on its head and turned it into an issue about individuals and their rights to compete, which was nothing to do with the report."
What are therapeutic use exemptions?
A TUE allows an athlete, for medical reasons, to take a prescribed substance or undergo treatment which is prohibited.
British athletes must contact their national governing body or follow UK Anti-Doping (Ukad) guidance before applying for a TUE.
There are strict criteria for one to be granted:
The athlete would suffer significant health problems without taking the substance;
It would not be significantly performance-enhancing;
There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative to its use;
The need to use it is not due to prior use without a TUE.
Ukad says it has "a number of robust controls in place to make it as difficult as possible" for athletes to misuse the system.
Why are we talking about TUEs?
Froome and Wiggins, Britain's most decorated Olympian, were among the five British athletes whose stolen medical files - showing their TUEs - were published by Fancy Bears this week.
The medical files of golfer Charley Hull, rugby sevens player Heather Fisher and rower Sam Townsend were also made public.
Froome, 31, said he had already made public his use of TUEs.
Froome twice took the steroid prednisolone for "exacerbated asthma" while Wiggins used salbutamol to treat chest conditions and asthma
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Sylvester
-
- Platinum Member
-
- Posts: 13997
- Thanks: 1422
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- mikesack
-
- Platinum Member
-
- Posts: 3348
- Thanks: 201
Re: Doing It For Dan / Goosen positive
8 years 9 months agoSylvester wrote: i am a fan of dan.
Yeah. You were so POSITIVE about him winning notwithstanding his bad manners at the gate that you put your wife as collateral at Cash Crusaders and tipped Dan a day before the race.
Well dan. :lol:
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Time to create page: 0.109 seconds