I am going to do a survey.

rob faux Wrote:

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> The operators own the tote , the events and the
> transmission thereof-strong negotiating power in
> any language.
> If Stuart was saying it was a pointless move , why
> go to trouble and expense of implementation?
> If the open bet is such a threat to local racing
> why does there seem to be no plan or strategy to
> circumvent it other than complaining about the
> outcome of the court case.

The ownership part is not as simple as you state.

One problem is that Multi-Choice broadcasts the transmission.

When the KZN bookmaking society recently terminated their contract with Tellytrack pertaining to the use of Multi-Choice channel 239 recently, they simply switched to a multi-choice sports channel contract used by pubs and other commercial outlets, not to mention terminating their live fixed odds feed to TT.

There are probably legal implications to what they did, but this could become quite complex if it ever went to court.

I would say that there has been plenty of planning and strategy to try and fight back against the open bet problem - look at the size of the Pick 6 pools for example since couplings were done away with.

Tipster Wrote:

---

> rob faux Wrote:
>

---

>

---

> > The operators own the tote , the events and the
> > transmission thereof-strong negotiating power
> in
> > any language.
> > If Stuart was saying it was a pointless move ,
> why
> > go to trouble and expense of implementation?
> > If the open bet is such a threat to local
> racing
> > why does there seem to be no plan or strategy
> to
> > circumvent it other than complaining about the
> > outcome of the court case.
>
> The ownership part is not as simple as you state.
>
> One problem is that Multi-Choice broadcasts the
> transmission.
>
> When the KZN bookmaking society recently
> terminated their contract with Tellytrack
> pertaining to the use of Multi-Choice channel 239
> recently, they simply switched to a multi-choice
> sports channel contract used by pubs and other
> commercial outlets, not to mention terminating
> their live fixed odds feed to TT.
>
> There are probably legal implications to what they
> did, but this could become quite complex if it
> ever went to court.
>
> I would say that there has been plenty of planning
> and strategy to try and fight back against the
> open bet problem - look at the size of the Pick 6
> pools for example since couplings were done away
> with.
My point exactly. ....bookmakers have outplayed the operators at every turn,so far!

rob faux Wrote:

---

> Tipster Wrote:
>

---

>

---

> > rob faux Wrote:
> >
>

---

>
> >

---

> > > The operators own the tote , the events and
> the
> > > transmission thereof-strong negotiating power
> > in
> > > any language.
> > > If Stuart was saying it was a pointless move
> ,
> > why
> > > go to trouble and expense of implementation?
> > > If the open bet is such a threat to local
> > racing
> > > why does there seem to be no plan or strategy
> > to
> > > circumvent it other than complaining about
> the
> > > outcome of the court case.
> >
> > The ownership part is not as simple as you
> state.
> >
> > One problem is that Multi-Choice broadcasts the
> > transmission.
> >
> > When the KZN bookmaking society recently
> > terminated their contract with Tellytrack
> > pertaining to the use of Multi-Choice channel
> 239
> > recently, they simply switched to a
> multi-choice
> > sports channel contract used by pubs and other
> > commercial outlets, not to mention terminating
> > their live fixed odds feed to TT.
> >
> > There are probably legal implications to what
> they
> > did, but this could become quite complex if it
> > ever went to court.
> >
> > I would say that there has been plenty of
> planning
> > and strategy to try and fight back against the
> > open bet problem - look at the size of the Pick
> 6
> > pools for example since couplings were done
> away
> > with.
> My point exactly. ....bookmakers have outplayed
> the operators at every turn,so far!

It's not quite your point exactly cos you said that overseas operators had given them a clue and they have tried that strategy out here already. You will have to think of some better advice.

Tipster, you seem to be in the know on how things work in KZN - but would it not be possible for you (or any other journalist that has the interest of 'racing' at heart) to publish an article (series of articles - maybe call it 'The Horse Racing Game - How Things Work' or 'Dummy Guide to the Horse Racing Industry in South Africa') informing us plebs how things work on a national basis. As TABONLINE is a 'national' site, perhaps these article(s) can be published there? At the moment many seem to think they know how it works, others are just guessing, so it would be nice to have some facts. I can't understand how there could be so many different interpretations, and everyone seems to be thinking that they know more / better than somebody else :S As an example LG seems to think that introducing the new decoder that will show only international racing, is a positive (financially for the industry as a whole), while others like Garrick is adamant that it will only speed up the 'death of local racing'. Who is right - I suppose the answer would be that both are partially right, but without the facts, it is hard to tell?

For me personally (as I am in Gauteng):

Firstly I would like to know exactly what the agreement / relationship is between the Phumelela, the RA, the Racing Trust and the NHA in terms of distribution of moneys earned from bettiing and nomination and acceptance fees.Which part (percentage) of the income is distributed as stakes (by who) and which part (percentage) is used for maintenance of the tracks, venues and training facilities, etc etc

Secondly (and maybe I am just dof) I would like to try and understand what measures have been taken by the 'powers that be' to 'combat the open bet' (in addition to scrapping the coupling rule in the P6 - which I do not believe could be seen to have much of an effect). As many have written on here, why does it seem so hard to just provide a product that would give the punters what they want (incentives, etc) so that it would pursuade punters that a bet on the tote is the clever thing to do?

Frodo Wrote:

---

> Tipster, you seem to be in the know on how things
> work in KZN - but would it not be possible for you
> (or any other journalist that has the interest of
> 'racing' at heart) to publish an article (series
> of articles - maybe call it 'The Horse Racing Game
> - How Things Work' or 'Dummy Guide to the Horse
> Racing Industry in South Africa') informing us
> plebs how things work on a national basis. As
> TABONLINE is a 'national' site, perhaps these
> article(s) can be published there? At the moment
> many seem to think they know how it works, others
> are just guessing, so it would be nice to have
> some facts. I can't understand how there could be
> so many different interpretations, and everyone
> seems to be thinking that they know more / better
> than somebody else :S As an example LG seems to
> think that introducing the new decoder that will
> show only international racing, is a positive
> (financially for the industry as a whole), while
> others like Garrick is adamant that it will only
> speed up the 'death of local racing'. Who is right
> - I suppose the answer would be that both are
> partially right, but without the facts, it is hard
> to tell?
>
> For me personally (as I am in Gauteng):
>
> Firstly I would like to know exactly what the
> agreement / relationship is between the Phumelela,
> the RA, the Racing Trust and the NHA in terms of
> distribution of moneys earned from bettiing and
> nomination and acceptance fees.Which part
> (percentage) of the income is distributed as
> stakes (by who) and which part (percentage) is
> used for maintenance of the tracks, venues and
> training facilities, etc etc
>
> Secondly (and maybe I am just dof) I would like to
> try and understand what measures have been taken
> by the 'powers that be' to 'combat the open bet'
> (in addition to scrapping the coupling rule in the
> P6 - which I do not believe could be seen to have
> much of an effect). As many have written on here,
> why does it seem so hard to just provide a product
> that would give the punters what they want
> (incentives, etc) so that it would pursuade
> punters that a bet on the tote is the clever thing
> to do?

Ok good idea.

Stephen Hawkings' theory of Phumelela explained..

Soccer pools

BS - mc = BP
---

Horse racing pools

css - BBC = loss

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hi someone once told me that in some countries if you take a tote bet at a particular time you would get the price that was available at the time the bet was struck. don't know how far this is true as I never bothered to research. I like the idea though.

there should also be more competitions in newspapers like racing trivia etc that will give entrants a chance to win vouchers and create more interest in the sport...not that the industry is not making a ton of money anyway <

there should also be lead horses available to catch those that let loose from the start and take long periods of time to be caught.

hi craig...thanks for the effort u show ....u have racing at heart...if i were u i would long have dissappered off ABC..with some of the abuse u get...lol...anyway..my suggestion...and maybe i should be backing the horse CLOUD CUCKOOLAND..next time it runs...but nevertheless...my suggestion..whether it reaches your top 10 ..i wont know:

cant GOLD CIRCLE stop crying foul with bookmakers...and fight fire with fire....they have a golden opportunity of introducing exchange betting under their wing...and make millions off the commission ....why are they dragging their feet regard this aspect..and seize the opportunity before its too late

We often get criticized for complaining without offering suggestions .
I will try to explain my point one last time and then just bet where it suits me best, as most people do!
The "clue" provided by the overseas partners is simply............take away the tools that assist competitors to compete on an unlevel playing field...........personally I am not sure the overseas racing is big enough for it to make much difference....I for instance don't bet much on it and the only bets I have are because its in my face............certainly won't go looking for it.

However, if part of the product can be removed from 239 why not remove it all and GIVE free decoders to persons registered with telebet &/or Tab-online accounts (use unclaimed tickets to fund) and Bookmaker outlets who act as agents for Saftote and who don't offer the open bet!
Yes there will be deception but as we know from other threads that TAB accounts that go dormant are de-activated,so deactivate the matching decoder at the same time!
Surely that would cause a bit of concern for outlets?

The principal needs more thought and refinement but why would that not at least be a start.............basic principle is don't give the opposition the wherewithall to stuff you!

Posters will be relieved to know I will have no more to say on the matter.............lol -

RACING GURU Wrote:

---

> cant GOLD CIRCLE stop crying foul with
> bookmakers...and fight fire with fire....they have
> a golden opportunity of introducing exchange
> betting under their wing...and make millions off
> the commission ....why are they dragging their
> feet regard this aspect..and seize the opportunity
> before its too late

Perfect solution.

Scorpion king Wrote:

---

> hi someone once told me that in some countries if
> you take a tote bet at a particular time you would
> get the price that was available at the time the
> bet was struck. don't know how far this is true as
> I never bothered to research. I like the idea
> though.
>
It's a pity you never thought for a moment, never mind the research. Consider what you understand a tote (totalisator) is, then just say sorry.

This is a punters site and a punting thread but there is a mindset pervasive in SA racing, where everyone is besot with the idea of how much the stakes are. The top part of the industry cares not one jot how much the fans have to lose to fund the game. My question for punters, people who love to gamble, is with everything one has to consider why would you worry about the stakes? Supply and demand of horses shows that ownership is not the biggest problem, the shrinkage of people who want to gamble on horses is.

If racing had kept just 5% of total stakes for development the war-chest would be awesome, instead every cent that could be paid to stakes has been to the point where "clubs" all but bankrupted themselves. As an owner I never ever cared whether the race my horse was entered in was for R84K or R88K (about 5%). I was always happy that there was a racecourse I never paid for, a training centre I never paid for, and stakes I never paid for, and a badge that separated me from all the mugs that did the paying. I never expected to make a profit unless I hit the horse equivalent of the jackpot.

The great majority of owners and punters do not expect to profit but they try. Anyone expecting a profit has been duped by a salesman or is going to get a rude education but quickly. Someone else is selling the false idea that stakes are what make this game. Just ask anyone except a trainer about how important stakes is to them about how they feel about the game. Ask yourself.

The year before last after all payments and expenses, P made 95 million and last year P made 110 million. This after the top five pulled in 13 mill salaries. Does it sound like they are on their last legs? The training centres have loads of horses, horses are frequently eliminated from races, so I cannot understand the constant clamour for stakes.

I am not for a moment saying that trainers and jocks and owners shouldn't clamour for more, more, more stakes, but punters should be clamoring for more service, more info, more consideration as a customer. F#$% the stakes...you pay for the whole game including the stakes no matter how and where you play. It's not the tote who pays, it's not the bookie who pays, it's the punter who pays from the spectator seats.