Do racehorses really have confidence?

Winning_Post wrote: Confidence is an emotion and therefore a state of mind, destroy that and obviously all confidence is lost... We like all other living things are born with a certain level of confidence the same way we are all born with a certain level of ability and through our life experiences we either grow in such or not, the same applies for race horses, the principles can be measured with remarkable accuracy.

WP, i agree confidence can be measured with remarkable accuracy, however not in a race because of the human intervention. It's the jockey who feels confident enough to take a horse to the front and outlast the other runners or sit stone last and outsprint the others to the line. We build up the horse's confidence in our own minds.

"It was an educational run"
"It's an honest horse"

Imho that's what distinguishes a great trainer from a good trainer. Not just training the horse physically, but understanding the non-verbal language of a horse, boosting how it feels about it's ability, and training it mentally to give it's best, however ordinary that "best" may be.

I'm sure that's part of being a great jockey too ... some jocks seem to get more response from a horse than others. Of course part of that is pace, good placement, etc., but there are those that again and again can get longshots to at least place, or even win. Because horses don't rely on words but on non-verbal cues, I think they can "feel" the confidence of their rider - which might be quite different from what they (the jockey!) says in interviews.

That's why I won't bet unless I am on course and can watch the horses in the paddock and the canter past. You can tell which ones are going out full of chutzpah and attitude, and which are just doing a job. Doesn't always translate into winners, sadly ... talent may be lacking ... but the bolshie boogers will give you a race for your money.

bayern wrote:

Winning_Post wrote: Confidence is an emotion and therefore a state of mind, destroy that and obviously all confidence is lost... We like all other living things are born with a certain level of confidence the same way we are all born with a certain level of ability and through our life experiences we either grow in such or not, the same applies for race horses, the principles can be measured with remarkable accuracy.

WP, i agree confidence can be measured with remarkable accuracy, however not in a race because of the human intervention. It's the jockey who feels confident enough to take a horse to the front and outlast the other runners or sit stone last and outsprint the others to the line. We build up the horse's confidence in our own minds.

Nope, for me the horse makes that choice to jump out the gates, run and respond to the jockey, it's all about how the horse likes to run, some like to go to the front, some like cover and some put in a late effort from way back, the jockey doesn't make that choice, he can influence it for sure...

Winning_Post wrote:

bayern wrote:

Winning_Post wrote: Confidence is an emotion and therefore a state of mind, destroy that and obviously all confidence is lost... We like all other living things are born with a certain level of confidence the same way we are all born with a certain level of ability and through our life experiences we either grow in such or not, the same applies for race horses, the principles can be measured with remarkable accuracy.

WP, i agree confidence can be measured with remarkable accuracy, however not in a race because of the human intervention. It's the jockey who feels confident enough to take a horse to the front and outlast the other runners or sit stone last and outsprint the others to the line. We build up the horse's confidence in our own minds.

Nope, for me the horse makes that choice to jump out the gates, run and respond to the jockey, it's all about how the horse likes to run, some like to go to the front, some like cover and some put in a late effort from way back, the jockey doesn't make that choice, he can influence it for sure...

I disagree with the human element being so important. Watch when a horse drops the jockey at the start. Some horses run in the pack causing interference because that's where they want to be, some fight all the way to the line and actually"win" the race riderless showing a natural proclivity to win in a confident manner. I'll come back to dogs again - It is not always the strongest dog (fastest horse) that is the most tenacious but the most confident - A confident tenacious horse will give you 100% of his ability but one with issues may not - I'll give you this though a human choice by a jockey or trainer can either enhance or diminish the horse's confidence but the inherent behavioral characteristics are mainly genetic and will be altered due to the environment of the training yard.

[I disagree with the human element being so important. Watch when a horse drops the jockey at the start. Some horses run in the pack causing interference because that's where they want to be, some fight all the way to the line and actually"win" the race riderless showing a natural proclivity to win in a confident manner. I'll come back to dogs again - It is not always the strongest dog (fastest horse) that is the most tenacious but the most confident - A confident tenacious horse will give you 100% of his ability but one with issues may not - I'll give you this though a human choice by a jockey or trainer can either enhance or diminish the horse's confidence but the inherent behavioral characteristics are mainly genetic and will be altered due to the environment of the training yard.[/quote]

.....on the money again Mr H.....a trainer can give a horse his best attention and care and do everything in his box of tricks..... but if the horse is genetically challenged(soup meat) and has no talent it will not perform ......and to answer Bayern.....retire a maiden or win a lowly maiden plate at 5 years old......even these sales toppers that some spend millions on.....the pedigree may look correct and the conformation spot on.....but still may be genetcally predisposed because these genes can be mixed and not in the right order.....so the individual inherits the looks of a would be champion but has no compunction to run like one.... :whistle:

What you guys are referring to is ability.

Mr. H, when a horse drops the jockey, the riders of the other horses are actually very afraid the rider-less horse does not cause mayhem and bring others down in the running. The rider-less horse does not look over it's shoulder and see it's okay to get out of the way of the others, it does what it is bred to do - run.

Muhti, the same applies to humans, you can get two brain surgeons to be intimate, there is no guarantee the offspring will be more intelligent than either parent. Why should horses be any different?

WP, when horses jump out at the start, i'm almost certain the jockey will either give the horse a shove on the neck or click the stirrups against the horse as a gentle reminder to go.

bayern wrote: What you guys are referring to is ability.

Mr. H, when a horse drops the jockey, the riders of the other horses are actually very afraid the rider-less horse does not cause mayhem and bring others down in the running. The rider-less horse does not look over it's shoulder and see it's okay to get out of the way of the others, it does what it is bred to do - run.

Muhti, the same applies to humans, you can get two brain surgeons to be intimate, there is no guarantee the offspring will be more intelligent than either parent. Why should horses be any different?

WP, when horses jump out at the start, i'm almost certain the jockey will either give the horse a shove on the neck or click the stirrups against the horse as a gentle reminder to go.

My point exactly - Some horses will rush off to the front riderless while others will try to stay in the pack - The unaided horse may run with the pack and finish amongst them OR try to actually win the race - It is that horse that is confident and has a winning mentality( Granted they have no added weight or jockey to unbalance them) that is a racehorse regardless of his ability - He wants to win and in the nature he is the horse that gets eaten last by predators. You can see the signs of many broken horses that big stables use as pace setters for their top horses - they are taught to lose and as such they lose their desire to win as they become less confident with each race where their ability is sacrificed for the better stable-mate.

It seems that almost everybody agrees that there is a mental aspect to a horse that plays a part in enhancing, or detracting from, its athletic ability ................the argument seems to be whether the right term is "confidence"

naresh wrote:

johnnycomelately wrote: Very interesting thread

I may have names wrong but i think after the July Hcp Mark Sutherland said,
When Bush Telegraph passed Al Mufti? it broke his heart. {the horse's,that is}
I thought it could'nt have been such a bad break as he finished 3rd? :lol:

Bush Telegraph beat Model Man and Wild West in the 1987 July. In 1991 Flaming Rock won from the widest draw to collar Al Mufti and Rakeen near the winning post. Mark Sutherland who rode Al Mufti in the July was then switched to ride Olympic Duel in the Mainstay which she won after Felix opted to ride Al Mufti.

Thank you Naresh, you just confirmed my memory is not what it used to be

Mr Hawaii!!!
If my horse is taught to lose i'll shoot the fucking trainer!!!

Damn! To think i have never doubted anything you ever said :lol:

johnnycomelately wrote: Mr Hawaii!!!
If my horse is taught to lose i'll shoot the fucking trainer!!!

Damn! To think i have never doubted anything you ever said :lol:

Sometimes the owner owns BOTH horses so he wants it to happen just like in the old F1 races